Re: Week 8: "Icons" Night Dances

by **Psychee22** Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:09 pm

By the way... and this is to no one in particular... I seem to recall almost everyone in this forum being absolutely certain that Derek's team would win the team dances, except me, who mentioned that the other team got a much better song.

Didn't someone here even say that Derek's team could just sit on the floor and do nothing and they would still win and folks agreed?

Well, Derek's team did not win the team dances.

I have yet to read anyone saying "Gee I was surprised. I guess I was wrong about the producer manipulation and that they always favor Derek". Like every other exception to the "rule", this one, too, seems to have been forgotten. Only the list of "things that support the opinion" are remembered and acknowledged. I guess everything else is considered a one-off.

We seriously need DWTSfan in here to keep the arguments anchored in reality, I think...

by **Glittersisgld** Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:10 pm

I didn't think she was at the top of the leaderboard each week. I had a feeling that wasn't true. I don't know if I thought she deserved tens last week in relation to everyone else.

by **Psychee22** Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:27 pm

Glittersisgld wrote:I didn't think she was at the top of the leaderboard each week. I had a feeling that wasn't true. I don't know if I thought she deserved tens last week in relation to everyone else.

No, Glitter, you're right. You didn't have the impression that Bindi was always at the top of the leaderboard. You also have not implied that you think the producers are manipulating the scores. You seem to just be bothered by Bindi's public adoration. That was actually increased this week when TIME magazine listed her as one of the 30 most influential teens in the world... along with Zendaya, Bethany Mota, Mattie Ziegler and a bunch of others, like Malia Obama. I don't think the show had anything to do with that; it seems more likely that they chose her to compete because of that popularity.

by **Glittersisgld** Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:53 pm

I don't know if it's just Bindi's public adoration. It just seems like she is supposed to win and that is that. It's already been decided. I question the adoration because it's not like I hear about her as much as I hear about other young people in the news. She is likable enough but she certainly isn't like Zendaya in the dancing area and she didn't even win.

by **Psychee22** Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:29 pm

Glittersisgld wrote:I don't know if it's just Bindi's public adoration. It just seems like she is supposed to win and that is that. It's already been decided. I question the adoration because it's not like I hear about her as much as I hear about other young people in the news. She is likable enough but she certainly isn't like Zendaya in the dancing area and she didn't even win.

Help me understand the "seems like she is supposed to win" part of your statement. I'm hearing her being praised on the show, and I am reading a good deal of warmth for the girl outside the show. I see that she is a kind of a hot commodity right now with the media, with People magazine doing a spread about her. But I don't understand how that results in the impression that "she is supposed to win". Can you explain?

by **Glittersisgld** Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:54 pm

You even said something about Derek being good at PR for his celebs. Maybe that helps. Isn't Bindi hot right now because she is on DWTS? I don't know if I can completely explain it, because I'm not sure how it happens, but it seems that most seasons certain people are going to win and you know it from the beginning and there isn't any surprise, like Alfonso winning or Meryl winning. I can kind of understand Meryl winning with her talent and there was so much hoopla about her plus she is an Olympic medalist. It just seems that most seasons you know who is going to win and like I said before, I was pleasantly surprised when Donald Driver won instead of Katherine Jenkins. I considered that a good season. Mostly the people win who everyone expects to win practically from the beginning. I'm not sure why or how it happens, it just seems to. I would have preferred Zendaya winning over Kellie Pickler. Zendaya was the darker horse and I just didn't care for Kellie.

by **Psychee22** Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:47 pm

I don't think her popularity with the media is simply "because she is on DWTS". I think it is more because of the impression she is giving while she is on DWTS. She is just so friggin' enthusiastic about life, and so lovable toward everybody, that she is making millions of people smile. You heard Tom Bergeron ask "Can we keep Bindi for next season, too?", and Maks --so often grumpy-- saying "I smiled throughout your dance", and Leah Remini saying "You're the nicest nicest kid I've ever known". The media sees that and automatically knows that any article about her online will be clicked upon; any magazine on the stand will be purchased when it has an article about her. It also helps that she is as friendly with the media and fans looking for autographs as she is with everyone else. She's constantly thanking people for being kind to her, and that is a refreshing change from the young stars like Justin Bieber.

Australia (and New Zealand) is suddenly interested in her because she is breaking out of what they thought was a robo-happy-child role. Her tears on TV mesmerized them. Her talk about having a boyfriend, her wearing heels and dresses, are making them say "Our little Bindi is all grown up and she was real all along!". And her dancing is blowing their minds. They never ever expected that their khaki tomboy child star could look that graceful on a dance floor.

So all that creates buzz. And I think folks would be hard-pressed to say that that buzz was not earned. She isn't interested in fame for herself. She has no intention of moving out of her home zoo anytime soon. What she wants is to save the planet.

Now, I don't think we have had a celebrity on the show who has had that kind of sudden meteoric rise in popularity, and it may very well mean that she wins the MBT if America decides that that is the ending they most want to see two days before Thanksgiving.

But that kind of popularity also tends to bring out the resentful types and there is backlash. There's an article in stuff.nz titled "Bindi Irwin blasted by angry Dancing with the Stars fans for 'rigged' scores". It is filled with tweets from fans of Tamar and Hayes from last Monday. Before that, it was all the body-shaming comments that were plastered all over message boards. So there is a swell of negativity happening -- Shawn Johnson got much of the same -- and it could turn the popularity tide. Everybody was certain that Shawn would win, too.

So I still don't get the "supposed to win" bit. "Likely to win", maybe. But "Supposed to" sounds too much like predestination to me.

by **Glittersisgld** Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:13 pm

Yes, but don't we know already that Bindi is going to win? That's what I'm talking about. It was the same with Alfonso and Meryl and some others. I'm sure Bindi is a very nice person and I don't doubt it, but is she going to win because of her niceness? I think it's understandable that she is in People, etc., because that's what they do when people are on this show and even the Bachelor and Bachelorette. They become big news partly because of these shows. I know Bindi is doing her own thing also and I'm sure that contributes to her newsworthiness plus her father was famous. Some people get turned off when everyone acts like one person is so wonderful for whatever reason. Nobody is perfect. It is annoying when someone is put so much on a pedestal. Most people don't treat other people like that in real life. People just have to project some perfection onto celebrities that isn't realistic. I don't need someone who acts perfect to win.

by **kincaid53** Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:40 pm

Psychee22 wrote:I don't think her popularity with the media is simply "because she is on DWTS". I think it is more because of the impression she is giving while she is on DWTS. She is just so friggin' enthusiastic about life, and so lovable toward everybody, that she is making millions of people smile. You heard Tom Bergeron ask "Can we keep Bindi for next season, too?", and Maks --so often grumpy-- saying "I smiled throughout your dance", and Leah Remini saying "You're the nicest nicest kid I've ever known". The media sees that and automatically knows that any article about her online will be clicked upon; any magazine on the stand will be purchased when it has an article about her. It also helps that she is as friendly with the media and fans looking for autographs as she is with everyone else. She's constantly thanking people for being kind to her, and that is a refreshing change from the young stars like Justin Bieber.

Australia (and New Zealand) is suddenly interested in her because she is breaking out of what they thought was a robo-happy-child role. Her tears on TV mesmerized them. Her talk about having a boyfriend, her wearing heels and dresses, are making them say "Our little Bindi is all grown up and she was real all along!". And her dancing is blowing their minds. They never ever expected that their khaki tomboy child star could look that graceful on a dance floor.

So all that creates buzz. And I think folks would be hard-pressed to say that that buzz was not earned. She isn't interested in fame for herself. She has no intention of moving out of her home zoo anytime soon. What she wants is to save the planet.

Now, I don't think we have had a celebrity on the show who has had that kind of sudden meteoric rise in popularity, and it may very well mean that she wins the MBT if America decides that that is the ending they most want to see two days before Thanksgiving.

But that kind of popularity also tends to bring out the resentful types and there is backlash. There's an article in stuff.nz titled "Bindi Irwin blasted by angry Dancing with the Stars fans for 'rigged' scores". It is filled with tweets from fans of Tamar and Hayes from last Monday. Before that, it was all the body-shaming comments that were plastered all over message boards. So there is a swell of negativity happening -- Shawn Johnson got much of the same -- and it could turn the popularity tide. Everybody was certain that Shawn would win, too.

So I still don't get the "supposed to win" bit. "Likely to win", maybe. But "Supposed to" sounds too much like predestination to me.

Talk about PR. WoW. I'm giving you a new title Bindis 'Spin doctor'.

by **Lesallee** Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:47 pm

Well, Carlos' "icon" is Marc Anthony per Witney's tweet.

by **Psychee22** Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:54 pm

No, we don't know that Bindi is going to win. We know that she is popular with the audience. That is often a factor -- a big factor -- in how entertained they feel when they watch a star dance, but it isn't the only factor.

The second factor, which never goes away, is how well the celebrity dances. A good dancer who is not popular will not get votes; a bad or iffy dancer who is popular will get SOME votes; the good dancer who is popular will get the most votes.

But on the very last vote -- the one that determines the winner, the third factor comes into play. That factor is driven by the appeal that is made to the viewers in those final Monday packages. The pros are given the power to shape those packages because they are so determinative. In those packages, the emotional appeal is made to the viewers -- "vote for me because...." they don't actually say that, but it is in those packages that the audience learned, for example, that Tony would be tickled to death if he FINALLY got the MBT. And in the same place in a different season, we heard Maks' emotional appeal for the same. In both cases, they got their wish, and it is my belief that America wanted to watch them get rewarded for working so hard; I call it the "feel good ending" factor. So on that last day, ask yourself "Whose win would make the most number of people feel good?" and I guarantee you that person will win.

We're not there yet.

Would those appeals have worked if they had not ALSO delivered great Freestyles and had beautifully dancing partners? No, I don't think so. But I do think this is the factor that helps people make up their minds when they are on the fence for that final vote.

All of this is to say that a lot more has to go into the "Bindi will win" cake before it is fully baked, and the corollary to that is that there is still plenty of opportunity for others to emotionally manipulate the feelings of the audience to make an even better cake.

by **Psychee22** Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:59 pm

Lesallee wrote:Well, Carlos' "icon" is Marc Anthony per Witney's tweet.

That would explain why they are using a Marc Anthony song for their salsa, then. Hooray that someone is doing a Latin dance to a song sung in Spanish. We don't get enough of that.

I assume that Bindi's idol is Grace Kelly, given her song choice. I think I would have preferred Dr. Doolittle, lol... a better song!

by **Glittersisgld** Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:11 pm

Psychee, I hope you're right.

by **DeadManDancing** Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:50 am

First of all, I want to clarify I never claimed the judges scores were manipulated by the producers, neither do I remember anybody else on this board did. That was a bit over the top, Psychee.
I just try to understand where everybody is coming from. I think what Glitters is saying is someone particular becoming the winner seems to turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy at a certain point, and she may feel we are reaching this point again. Ok, one can overlook this phenomenon if the winner is the best dancer anyway. Meryl and Alfonso have to be named again here. But for her (and I tend to agree), Bindi is not the best dancer this season. She started promising, and I was pleasantly surprised how much fun Derek is having with her. I even said back then I could imagine she gets Derek his 6th trophy. But apart from drilling more and more technique into her, I don't see as much growth as I would have expected.
For Kincaid, she remains sort of one-dimensional, and I get it. Lesallee smells that something is happening to make up for that, and I think I know why. Carlos is much more powerful, Tamar has much more personality and sex appeal, Nick's performance level is much higher, and even Andy has arrived in the game- although I think he would have done better from the start with Peta. And they all are dancing as good as Bindi, so it should be an even playing field.
Still, why do some believe it's not? Let's not harp on about the one point less for Nick from CA last week. You're right: in itself, it's no big deal. Same for Julianne, who didn't see Bindi was out of sync in the team dance. No need to discuss the highly produced packages again either. I'm not even using the big words like conspiracy or favoritism. But add up bits like these, and they can easily gather a momentum of their own. On the other hand, once this train starts rolling, no one can stop it even if takes a "wrong" direction. That is why you and me agreed earlier the outcome remains unpredictable. It didn't work for Bethany; we may observe it won't work for Bindi either.
However, she is the only one who never experienced the dip of self-confidence the judges' comments can evoke, but is that really because she is so much better than the others? If your answer is yes, I'll respect that as your opinion and leave it at that. I'm beginning to feel like we are are falling back into abc-board mode, and I clearly don't want this.
Being a SharNick fan, I was first to admit Bindi's AT was technically better than Nick's. The reason it didn't wow me was it felt like Derek choreographed a mishmash of spectacular moves from previous seasons, including the best of Scherzinger, Purdy, and Mota. Not her fault though, but in addition I didn't believe she really got into character. Make-up instead of facial expression. I remember when Kellie Pickler struggled with the character of the Paso, Tristan said it was like "drawing a lion out of a kitten". I doubt the score would have been perfect if Len was still around, but that's water under the bridge now.
Bindi is one good dancer on a great cast, but not a miracle. While the judges seem to be carried away by her, I'll try to keep my feet on the ground. True, the winner is not determined yet, but the roles are. Bindi is the sweetheart; Tamar is the malicious stepmother. Who thinks Val can turn that around?

by **Lesallee** Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:29 pm

Excellent and well thought out post, brother. You articulated many of my thoughts.

For me, and I stress, for me the Bindi Express is turning what should be a fun and competitive season into a snooze fest. I feel like I am just watching to see who gets second place. I felt that way during Amber Riley's season, another good but not great dancer. However I felt from the start that Amber was the celeb that the producers wanted to win and win she did. Corbin Bleu could and did dance circles around her. But Amber had been so promoted and publicized as The Best that Corbin didn't stand a chance. This is happening again, the voting viewers are being bombarded with Bindi's perfection leaving better dancers in the dust. Let's face it, very few voters are anything other than casual voters - the packages and the scoring say Bindi is the best, okay I'll vote for her.

I believe the producers tinker and manipulate to get the outcome they desire. It doesn't always work because sometimes another celeb catches the attention of the fans but when the manipulation begins strongly at the start of the season as it did for Bindi and Amber no one else has much chance. Meryl is often cited as the decreed winner from the get go. But I thought TPTB threw Meryl and Charlie in figuring one of them would win and Meryl just blew it away with her talent. She wasn't pushed as the winner from the start, the producers hopped aboard the Meryl bandwagon much later.

Sadly, the whole season has become anti climactic for me. I will watch to see the dances but truly wish the whole thing was not just the coronation of Bindi. If the tide should turn and someone else emerges as the winner I will happily eat my words (with a dash of steak sauce, please).

by DiscoDiva92 Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:01 pm

Lesallee wrote:Excellent and well thought out post, brother. You articulated many of my thoughts.

For me, and I stress, for me the Bindi Express is turning what should be a fun and competitive season into a snooze fest. I feel like I am just watching to see who gets second place. I felt that way during Amber Riley's season, another good but not great dancer. However I felt from the start that Amber was the celeb that the producers wanted to win and win she did. Corbin Bleu could and did dance circles around her. But Amber had been so promoted and publicized as The Best that Corbin didn't stand a chance. This is happening again, the voting viewers are being bombarded with Bindi's perfection leaving better dancers in the dust. Let's face it, very few voters are anything other than casual voters - the packages and the scoring say Bindi is the best, okay I'll vote for her.

I believe the producers tinker and manipulate to get the outcome they desire. It doesn't always work because sometimes another celeb catches the attention of the fans but when the manipulation begins strongly at the start of the season as it did for Bindi and Amber no one else has much chance. Meryl is often cited as the decreed winner from the get go. But I thought TPTB threw Meryl and Charlie in figuring one of them would win and Meryl just blew it away with her talent. She wasn't pushed as the winner from the get go, the producers hopped aboard the Meryl bandwagon much later.

Sadly, the whole season has become anti climactic for me. I will watch to see the dances but truly wish the whole thing was not just the coronation of Bindi. If the tide should turn and someone else emerges as the winner I will happily eat my words (with a dash of steak sauce, please).

Well said Lesallee! I agree with your entire post.

by **Psychee22** Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:26 pm

Lesallee wrote:--snipped---

Sadly, the whole season has become anti climactic for me. I will watch to see the dances but truly wish the whole thing was not just the coronation of Bindi. If the tide should turn and someone else emerges as the winner I will happily eat my words (with a dash of steak sauce, please).

And what if the tide turns this week, Bindi is not on top of the leaderboard, she does not win immunity, the judges give her a hard time about what she does in her foxtrot - and she still wins in the end? Will that change your perceptions at all?

by **Lesallee** Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:34 pm

Psychee22 wrote:

And what if the tide turns this week, Bindi is not on top of the leaderboard, she does not win immunity, the judges give her a hard time about what she does in her foxtrot - and she still wins in the end? Will that change your perceptions at all?

Don't know, Psychee. At this point those things are just speculation - could happen, hasn't yet. So my comments, opinions and perceptions are based on what has happened so far. If any part of your scenario comes to pass I will evaluate my reaction then.

by **DeadManDancing** Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:50 pm

The songs have been revealed on the abc website, but not the dance styles. Does anyone know more?

The couples will dance to the following songs:
Alek Skarlatos & Lindsay Arnold – "Holding Out For A Hero" by Ella Mae Bowen
Alexa PenaVega & Mark Ballas – "Viva La Vida" by Coldplay
Andy Grammer & Allison Holker – "Isn’t She Lovely" by Stevie Wonder
Bindi Irwin & Derek Hough – "Grace Kelly" by MIKA
Carlos PenaVega & Witney Carson – "Valio La Pena" by Marc Anthony
Nick Carter & Sharna Burgess – "Can’t Help Falling In Love" by Haley Reinhart
Tamar Braxton & Valentin Chmerkovskiy – "Born This Way" by Lady Gaga

by **Psychee22** Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:59 pm

DeadManDancing wrote:The songs have been revealed on the abc website, but not the dance styles. Does anyone know more?

The couples will dance to the following songs:
Alek Skarlatos & Lindsay Arnold – "Holding Out For A Hero" by Ella Mae Bowen
Alexa PenaVega & Mark Ballas – "Viva La Vida" by Coldplay
Andy Grammer & Allison Holker – "Isn’t She Lovely" by Stevie Wonder
Bindi Irwin & Derek Hough – "Grace Kelly" by MIKA
Carlos PenaVega & Witney Carson – "Valio La Pena" by Marc Anthony
Nick Carter & Sharna Burgess – "Can’t Help Falling In Love" by Haley Reinhart
Tamar Braxton & Valentin Chmerkovskiy – "Born This Way" by Lady Gaga

These we know for sure:

Nick -- Contemporary
Carlos -- Salsa
Bindi - Foxtrot

These we can guess from other info about what dance styles will be included:

Tamar - Paso
Alexa - Argentine Tango
Alek - Viennese Waltz

This one I have no idea:

Andy. He's dancing to "Isn't She Lovely" which he could do a foxtrot or cha cha to, but he's done both of those, so maybe it will be an Allison-engineered Waltz.

by **DeadManDancing** Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:45 pm

Allison-engineered... Good one. Thanks for making my day. Laughing

Btw: according to the lyrics of the song, we should expect Derek to be dressed up as Freddie Mercury. I think he had his Swayze down well, so I'm looking forward to that!

by **kincaid53** Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:17 pm

Ok enlighten me .......what's so funny about Allison engineered?

by **Psychee22** Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:18 pm

DeadManDancing wrote:Allison-engineered... Good one. Thanks for making my day.
Btw: according to the lyrics of the song, we should expect Derek to be dressed up as Freddie Mercury. I think he had his Swayze down well, so I'm looking forward to that!

Oh, I don't think so. I'm expecting more of a Grace Kelly emphasis.... I think we should leave the Freddy Mercury imitations to Tristan or perhaps Maks who did Jagger so well.

by **DeadManDancing** Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:01 pm

kincaid53 wrote:Ok enlighten me .......what's so funny about Allison engineered?

Can't even tell... Maybe it's just me, but it made me smile. It's like everyone else is choerographing; Allison is engineering- full steam ahead.

by **DeadManDancing** Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:19 pm

Psychee22... wrote: I think we should leave the Freddy Mercury imitations to Tristan or perhaps Maks who did Jagger so well.

Tristan's Freddie was great indeed! And I'll never forget how Kirstie talked Maks into those tight pants... "Your junk is not gonna be out. That's not what this show is about". And yes, he had the moves like Jagger.

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