Re: Bachelor in Paradise - Episode 1 - Aug. 2, 2015

by **Buckeye Belle** Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:10 pm

skt8word wrote:What if the marriage ceremony takes place outside California like it did on BIP? Wouldn't they need an ordained minister for that?

Laws on marriage differ from one jurisdiction to another--from country to country and state to state in the U.S. This marriage took place in Mexico, so its validity there would depend on Mexican law. If Mexican law requires an ordained officiant (if not done in a civil ceremony), then Chris Harrison's status would depend on Mexican law as to who is deemed "ordained."

Then it must be determined if California (or whatever state the couple resides in) recognizes a Mexican marriage (most likely does). It could be the case that the couple had a civil ceremony at home before the one done before the bach cameras. Maybe the trip to Mexico was a honeymoon on Fleiss's dime as compensation for the "performance."

Marriage is, in its essence, a contract created by law. An officiant is needed to impose that contract on the couple, and the witnesses are there to confirm that the parties have agreed to it. Some countries require a civil ceremony for a marriage to be recognized under that country's laws (leaving a religious ceremony at the option of the couple). Some (like the U.S.) have a mashup of civil and/or religious ceremonies to finalize the contract.

That's a lot of explanation! Much more complicated than saying "That was the BEST wedding-by-the-sea EVER"!

by **skt8word** Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:20 pm

Yeah thanks Belle for typing all that Smile

I've been wondering if it was a valid marriage ceremony in Mexico and suspecting it was done for the cameras. Lacy even announced a few days ago that there was going to be a wedding on BIP. So while it was perhaps a surprise to the contestants it wasn't a surprise to a lot of viewers, just an incentive to get them to tune in to the first episode.

by **Buckeye Belle** Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:28 pm

Ha ha, sk8! Cynicism rules in all bach matters. Everything is presumed fake until proven real. Giggle

by **skt8word** Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:40 pm

At least with regards to this show, haha. Yeah so maybe CH didn't "marry" them like they made it seem. But I think it encouraged the contestants, so at least they benefited in that way ;

by **WidderWoman4** Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:17 pm

My son has one of those Universal Life ordinations that is recognized in all 50 states. He has performed two weddings with it, and they are perfectly legal. Chris Harrison could easily have gotten one of them, too.

by **Starz** Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:03 pm

Marcus and Lacey were already legally married before BIP was filmed. We saw a "second" wedding with CH performing for BN fans and ratings.

by **Buckeye Belle** Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:05 pm

This discussion has made me curious, so I did a little research (as a disclaimer, a very little) research.

Apparently Mexican marriage law requires a lot of complicated hoop-jumping (or document signing). Some resorts even provide couples who are there for a destination wedding a package explaining the entire process. In a very recent New York divorce, the issue was whether the marriage sought to be dissolved was even valid in the first place. Why? Because it was a Mexican "symbolic" marriage performed by a Universal Life minister who was the groom's cousin. (And yes, on a beach by the ocean.)

A New York judge ruled the marriage was not valid because it did not conform to Mexican law. Here is an article about it.

http://www.divorceny.com/divorce/licenseless-mexican-marriage/

Part of the opinion stated ". . . couples who decide to have destination weddings in Mexico or other exotic locales, but wish to avoid the burdensome legal requirements that those locales may impose often opt to have a civil ceremony in New York either before or after they have their symbolic wedding." The opinion also stated that ". . . the validity of a marriage is determined by the laws of the state or country in which it was performed."

Whether the ruling would be the same in some other state, I don't know, but this case seems to support the notion that there was another ceremony besides the one televised. It should be noted that the New York judge did not rule the marriage in question was invalid solely because the officiant was clergy of Universal Life Church.

by **Starz** Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:08 pm

I watched my first BIP - off and on - last night.
I was sooooo bored, hence the "off and on". I actually left the TV room to wash the dishes during the show.
I don't know if I will watch any more of it.

by **Buckeye Belle** Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:11 pm

Starz wrote:Marcus and Lacey were already legally married before BIP was filmed. We saw a "second" wedding with CH performing for BN fans and ratings.

Starz, thanks for this. You posted while I was writing, but I decided to finish my post anyway because the article cited was interesting--at lease to me. I recognize others might think, "not so much." Beating a dead horse

by **Starz** Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:15 pm

Buckeye Belle wrote:
Starz wrote:Marcus and Lacey were already legally married before BIP was filmed. We saw a "second" wedding with CH performing for BN fans and ratings.
Starz, thanks for this. You posted while I was writing, but I decided to finish my post anyway because the article cited was interesting--at lease to me. I recognize others might think, "not so much."

Your article IS interesting Belle. I am glad you posted it.
Darn! You got to use "beating a dead horse" first! I was hoping for an appropriate time. This was a good use, for sure.

by **USN** Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:26 pm

Buckeye Belle wrote:
skt8word wrote:What if the marriage ceremony takes place outside California like it did on BIP? Wouldn't they need an ordained minister for that?
Laws on marriage differ from one jurisdiction to another--from country to country and state to state in the U.S. This marriage took place in Mexico, so its validity there would depend on Mexican law. If Mexican law requires an ordained officiant (if not done in a civil ceremony), then Chris Harrison's status would depend on Mexican law as to who is deemed "ordained."

Then it must be determined if California (or whatever state the couple resides in) recognizes a Mexican marriage (most likely does). It could be the case that the couple had a civil ceremony at home before the one done before the bach cameras. Maybe the trip to Mexico was a honeymoon on Fleiss's dime as compensation for the "performance."

Marriage is, in its essence, a contract created by law. An officiant is needed to impose that contract on the couple, and the witnesses are there to confirm that the parties have agreed to it. Some countries require a civil ceremony for a marriage to be recognized under that country's laws (leaving a religious ceremony at the option of the couple). Some (like the U.S.) have a mashup of civil and/or religious ceremonies to finalize the contract.

That's a lot of explanation! Much more complicated than saying "That was the BEST wedding-by-the-sea EVER"!

Hi Belle~

Would it be safe to assume if Chris was registered in CA, or had a Universal Life ordination, as WW's son has, and Marcus and Lacey had a CA marriage license, wouldn't they be able to be married anywhere in the world by Chris, and not have to abide by that country's or state's marriage laws?

by **Buckeye Belle** Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:43 pm

Hi, USN. The short answer is that the validity of a marriage would be determined by the law governing whatever they needed to do that involved being married. The question you posed is whether the marriage would be valid according to California law (where the officiant would be authorized), even if not performed in California (where the officiant may not be authorized). I think I'd rather believe Marcus and Lacy covered all the bases and we don't need to figure this out, but I'll try. Every state is different, so there is no universal answer and no uniform set of rules.

by **rkc1960** Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:09 pm

singlyme wrote:First, someone ought to arm Mikey T with a club and give him a cave. Perhaps it would have been wise of him to develop some brain cells rather than muscle. The sad part is that he believes his testosterone is appealing.

So... the "I" sisters definitely have some emotional and social problems.

I was disappointed that Jade passed on the opportunity to ask Jared on her date. But can you imagine the trauma Ashley would have undergone?

Doesn't it figure that newbie Clare would zero in on the very three guys who've been targeted by others? I can already envision the drama to come. Something tells me she's going to be on every female's hit list.

My thoughts on Mikey, exactly. Thought he was a over-developed meat head before and he hasn't changed.

Why, oh why, did they allow Ashley's sister on the show? She talks trashy. When they got there and Ashley said, "I am the flirty one" and her sister said, "And I finish them off" that was just so wrong on so many levels. I'm just wondering how she wormed her way in there because there are so many other girls that were actually on The Bachelor that deserved to be there more than her. Makes you wonder who she slept with to get there. I knew Ashley was going to annoy me but now there are two of them.

I think Jared and Jade would be cute together. She may have chose Tanner to not rock the boat so early on. I'm sure they will explore any possible connection before this is over with. This show is one big hook-up after another so anything is likely to happen. As I stated before, within the Bach Bubble it is just one big mosh pit of everyone hooking up with each other and swapping bodily fluids with each other. Pretty gross.

In the first episode I didn't notice Miss Black Strip bonding with anyone. Didn't surprise me that she showed up in a bikini with her butt hanging out and her new boobs on display. I think she loves herself more than she will love anyone else anyway.

There was something about Jonathan that didn't sit right with me on Kaitlyn's season and I guess now I know why. His comments were really big turn offs. He doesn't sound like he respects women at all and looks at them more as sexual objects to toy with. Slime-ball.

I really don't remember the guy that Carly hooked up with but it's good to see her with someone. I'm sure that won't last though and the tears will come out and she will be down on herself again.

JJ...SMH...nothing more to say.

I'd like to see Juelia find someone for real. She seems like a nice girl.

Hurricane Clare is about to stir the pot...she will be enemy number one in no time.

by **Buckeye Belle** Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:12 pm

OK, USN. I'm baaaaaaaaaack! Here as an attorney's quote from this web site about Mexican marriages:

http://www.lawqa.com/qa/will-marriage-in-mexico-be-recognized-in-us

"California will recognize the marriage as valid if Mexico recognizes it as valid. You may want to have proof available such as certificates, etc. You would have more of an issue if you have no documentation of the marriage and your husband decides to claim that there was never a marriage. Otherwise, you should receive the same treatment, protections, and benefits under California law."

This is pretty much the same as in the New York case posted above. So we are back to whether the Mexican BIP ceremony made for a valid Mexican marriage, and we're not sure because we don't know if Chris Harrison was an authorized officiant under Mexican law. I think we need to go with the theory that there was also a legal marriage somewhere.

by **USN** Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:49 pm

Thank you Belle, you didn't need to go through all of that, but I do appreciate it. My guess is that they were married previous to the show being filmed. Thanks again. Enjoy your day!

by **Buckeye Belle** Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:00 pm

You're welcome, USN. It only took a couple of minutes and I enjoyed doing it. It's good exercise and it satisfied my own curiosity. I also wondered about that ceremony when it took place and felt validated when I saw others asking about it. I didn't question Chris's ordination itself, but wondered if it were valid in Mexico.

by **rkc1960** Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:00 pm

Regardless of the law, I think it was pretty obvious that that was not their actual wedding. I don't think that the very small showing of family would have been acceptable to either side of the family. It just came off to me as a bit contrived. Nothing like throwing something like that in on the first night for show.

by **USN** Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:51 pm

Buckeye Belle wrote:You're welcome, USN. It only took a couple of minutes and I enjoyed doing it. It's good exercise and it satisfied my own curiosity. I also wondered about that ceremony when it took place and felt validated when I saw others asking about it. I didn't question Chris's ordination itself, but wondered if it were valid in Mexico.

I agree, Belle, I think the wedding had already taken place. Skt8word did bring up an interesting question. In my feeble mind, it didn't make sense, that ordination would have to be valid in Mexico, if they were not planning on living there, and didn't request a Mexican marriage license.

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