Re: Between Seasons Conversations

by **DeadManDancing** Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:21 pm

Psychee22 wrote:(To both of you)

Glitter, "sth" is an abbreviation of "something".

Deadie, we do have the experience of Witney as evidence. She got help for her whole season with Alfonso but since then she has been re-using the elements of that choreography in her own creations. She doesn't pull things together as tightly as her ghost, and there have been criticisms, but the re-use is definitely there.

I think the pros have been mostly looking for assistance with contemporary and "lyrical hip-hop", which is a kind of hip-hop developed by the couple known as "NappyTabs" of SYTYCD fame.

Glitter, I don't know how difficult it is to learn a new style, but I do think it involves a great deal of practice to get one's body to get comfortable enough with the style that it doesn't fall back to what it is better used to. I recall Derek trying to learn the Bhangra with Shawn saying how unnatural the movements were for him and how he was unable to finalize his choreography for that dance until a few hours before they had to perform it. And I can't imagine how long it would take for anyone with ballet training to get comfortable with not pointing her toes in a Contemporary. But I would agree with you that it isn't like a pro has to start completely from scratch to learn a new dance... they at least have the raw material (like core strength) to work with. Remembering the choreography to a new type of dance after 25 years of just doing the same elements, though, must be a challenge.

Psychee, I think it's understandable if pros with classical training need help with modern dances and vice versa. A Contemporary choreographed by Val will never have the quality that Allison is able to create; on the other hand, she could learn a lot about Foxtrot from him (random example). Which proves to me though (what Glitters was asking) it does take years to perfect any style. Anyway, 90 percent of the show is still about the classical Ballroom and Latin Dances. If Witney got help through the entire season 19, she wasn't prepared for any of the requirements of the show except Jazz maybe (and that included a lot of Carlton). Allison was facing a similar problem, and other than Witney, she didn't even have the troupe as a training camp. SYTYCD is maybe not the best source for recruting new DWTS pros. Learning by doing is ok, but that should happen during the off-season; not live on stage pretending they perform their own creation.

by **Glittersisgld** Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:04 pm

I guess I was mixing up choreography with ability to do the dance style.

by **Lesallee** Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:38 pm

Candace Cameron Bure's daughter, Natasha, is auditioning for The Voice. I saw a brief bit of her singing and the girl is good. Hope she makes it, I will enjoy seeing and listening to her.

by **kincaid53** Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:41 am

I've heard her too sis and yes she is good, I hope to see her on there also!!

by **Psychee22** Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:06 am

DeadManDancing wrote:
[snip] Which proves to me though (what Glitters was asking) it does take years to perfect any style. Anyway, 90 percent of the show is still about the classical Ballroom and Latin Dances. If Witney got help through the entire season 19, she wasn't prepared for any of the requirements of the show except Jazz maybe (and that included a lot of Carlton). Allison was facing a similar problem, and other than Witney, she didn't even have the troupe as a training camp. SYTYCD is maybe not the best source for recruting new DWTS pros. Learning by doing is ok, but that should happen during the off-season; not live on stage pretending they perform their own creation.

Deadie, I think Witney got help with her jazz numbers, too. Based on how much she has apparently relied on Alan Salazar to choreograph for her in the past (in SYTYCD, as well), AND on how much Lindsey has gone to him for help as well (almost every week), AND that the clips that are available from their "Born in Utah" show are all recognizable routines that they danced in the past, I am thinking that in spite of all their cross-training in dance, they have always only danced to others' creations. Perhaps choreography was not a skill they were urged to develop while they were in training.

I think Allison may have come to the show with well developed choreography skills in Contemporary but much more limited performance experience with other dance styles. Since she arrived, though, she has had near constant outside ballroom training to fill in her knowledge gaps. I am guessing that once she learned the elements of the ballroom dances, she had next to no trouble choreographing with them, though.

I think choreography might require a particular kind of artistic brain that lends itself to that form of creativity. It seems to be a very different thing than, say, perfectly executing a dance step. The choreographer has to be able to imagine both the man's and the woman's role in the dance, and has to be able to seamlessly work out the transitions from one element to the next. Tristan McManus mentioned in an interview that he hates to choreograph and I am guessing that he is probably not alone in that.

But back to your comment... I don't think the pros who use ghosts are "pretending to perform their own creations". I don't think it is their fault if the audience makes an assumption about who created their dance. The show is SUPPOSED to be about the celebrity LEARNING. The celebrities ARE learning and the pros ARE teaching them themselves, so I guess I don't feel like anyone is pretending anything.

Why is it important to you, do you think, to know if a pro has created the dance by him or herself?

by **Glittersisgld** Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:18 am

This makes sense about the pros using others to help them with their choreography. I was wondering how can all these pros be such good dancers and choreographers too? How did you know Lindsey used Alan a lot? We finally know Witney is a fraud! Ha ha!

by **Lesallee** Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:58 am

Just read that sweetie Hayes Grier is in hospital following a dirt bike accident. His injuries include broken ribs, a bruised lung and a concussion. He's in a lot of pain. So sorry, heal quickly Hayes.

by **kincaid53** Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:30 pm

We are cheering for you to get well soon Hayes!!! Cheer

by **DeadManDancing** Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:58 pm

Psychee22 wrote:
Deadie, I think Witney got help with her jazz numbers, too. Based on how much she has apparently relied on Alan Salazar to choreograph for her in the past (in SYTYCD, as well), AND on how much Lindsey has gone to him for help as well (almost every week), AND that the clips that are available from their "Born in Utah" show are all recognizable routines that they danced in the past, I am thinking that in spite of all their cross-training in dance, they have always only danced to others' creations. Perhaps choreography was not a skill they were urged to develop while they were in training.

I think Allison may have come to the show with well developed choreography skills in Contemporary but much more limited performance experience with other dance styles. Since she arrived, though, she has had near constant outside ballroom training to fill in her knowledge gaps. I am guessing that once she learned the elements of the ballroom dances, she had next to no trouble choreographing with them, though.

I think choreography might require a particular kind of artistic brain that lends itself to that form of creativity. It seems to be a very different thing than, say, perfectly executing a dance step. The choreographer has to be able to imagine both the man's and the woman's role in the dance, and has to be able to seamlessly work out the transitions from one element to the next. Tristan McManus mentioned in an interview that he hates to choreograph and I am guessing that he is probably not alone in that.

But back to your comment... I don't think the pros who use ghosts are "pretending to perform their own creations". I don't think it is their fault if the audience makes an assumption about who created their dance. The show is SUPPOSED to be about the celebrity LEARNING. The celebrities ARE learning and the pros ARE teaching them themselves, so I guess I don't feel like anyone is pretending anything.

Why is it important to you, do you think, to know if a pro has created the dance by him or herself?

Psychee, I've come to prefer Allison over Witney, because I see she puts in the work and is improving. That's why I mentioned her. Now to your question. I've said before the show is supposed to be about the celebs- but we all know better. The established pros are stars in their own right, or would you honestly deny that? Why is it important to know who created the dance? Because the choreographing skills are part of the pros' reputation; and if TPTP do nothing to correct our false assumptions and let something embarrassing like Witney's nomination happen, it leaves a bad aftertaste in my mouth. From what Glitters has posted, I think we have one thing in common: we watched the packages and took for granted that the pros had developed themselves what they were teaching their celebs if not otherwise stated. The "old" pros never had a problem to admit when they needed help (Derek with Bhangra, Karina with HipHop, Peta with Bollywood, Maks with Contemporary, Cheryl with Bolero, etc.). Apparently Witney (and partially Lindsay as well) did not learn as much on the troupe as Peta, Sharna, Emma, and Sasha. That is disappointing; to say the least. To be totally honest: I am as pissed as Louis. Do you remember Milli Vanilli? That's how it feels.

by **Psychee22** Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:00 pm

Glittersisgld wrote:How did you know Lindsey used Alan a lot? We finally know Witney is a fraud! Ha ha!

I looked through Alan's twitter feed, Glitter. Almost every week during the season Lindsey publicly tweeted thanks to him for his help. From that I concluded that she got help from him a lot.

I wouldn't call Witney a fraud, though. She never claimed to do something that she did not do, and she actively tried to get Alan recognition when she got that Emmy nomination. Now she seems to be trying to choreograph on her own and she is discovering that it is very difficult. I think she might be trying to get an Emmy on her own... she is quite ambitious.

by **DeadManDancing** Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:02 pm

Lesallee wrote:Just read that sweetie Hayes Grier is in hospital following a dirt bike accident. His injuries include broken ribs, a bruised lung and a concussion. He's in a lot of pain. So sorry, heal quickly Hayes.

Sorry to hear that. Maybe he should go for a less dangerous hobby. Never heard that Cody Simpson has been hurt by a surfboard.

by **Glittersisgld** Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:17 pm

I was just joking about Witney because she irks me. I won't get into that can of worms.

by **Glittersisgld** Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:21 pm

As far as Allison is concerned, I think she is too spastic and needs to dial it down a bit. It comes across like she is trying too hard. As far as the pros being stars, that is true, but did we know that would happen when the show first began?

by **DeadManDancing** Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:50 pm

Glittersisgld wrote:As far as Allison is concerned, I think she is too spastic and needs to dial it down a bit. It comes across like she is trying too hard. As far as the pros being stars, that is true, but did we know that would happen when the show first began?

Of course not. It takes years of hard work to become a star. Which is exactly what's missing here. Too much one hit wonders lately.
You may say Allison is too frantic sometimes (I know what you mean), and God knows I've criticised a lot of pros (including Derek) for this, that, and the other- but at least it was their own works. The way they were presented, I thought Lindsay and Witney were the wonder twins, but no. I'm still chewing on that bite.

by **Lesallee** Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:56 pm

To my way of thinking the most important talent a pro needs to possess on DWTS is the ability to teach. DWTS is, as Cheryl B, said "a little dance show". It is strictly for entertainment not in any way a serious competition. Cutting edge or ultra innovative choreography doesn't mean much on DWTS. The pro must teach their celeb to perform a routine that is fun and entertaining enough to find favour with the fans and pull in the vote. Whether the pro does his or her own choreography, with or without assistance is irrelevant to me and, I venture to say, the majority of DWTS viewing fans.

When I watch actual dance competitions, such as SYTYCD, the choreography and the choreographer means something. But still, if an amazingly intricate and ambitious piece of choreography isn't performed with excellence it fails.

by **Psychee22** Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:08 pm

DeadManDancing wrote:[snip] Apparently Witney (and partially Lindsay as well) did not learn as much on the troupe as Peta, Sharna, Emma, and Sasha. That is disappointing; to say the least. To be totally honest: I am as pissed as Louis. Do you remember Milli Vanilli? That's how it feels.

I can see the connection between this and Milli Vanilli with the Emmy [they got a Grammy for a song they did not sing and Witney got an Emmy choreography nod for a dance she did not choreograph] except that Milli (initially) dishonestly accepted the award and Witney HONESTLY tried to set the record straight.

And yes, I do agree that the pros are celebrities in their own right once they get a partner.

BUT... where the show is concerned, the choreography, to me, is only part of a much larger package, and Witney does seem to be delivering the encouraging, the staging, the teaching and the dancing portion of the job.

You mentioned time as a troupe member as a learning experience... I don't think that being in the troupe teaches pros choreography, though. As I said above, I think choreography is a separate skill that pros either have the creativity for or they do not. I think being in the troupe does expose the pros to all the possibilities of concept and staging and costuming and lighting, though, that they need when they are assigned a partner. Lindsey learned a lot about that when she was in the troupe, and I think Witney must have learned a bit, too. Her staging seems good to me.

But one never knows about that, either. Derek and Mark frequently shout out thanks to the production crews and costumers and make-up artists for their help, saying that they bring the vision to life. That tells me that these extra folks aren't just mechanics delivering on an order that the pros put in, but are artists that take the suggestion of a theme and develop it in their own brains, with their own artistry, creating a much more intricate tapestry for the audience than the pros could have ever envisioned on their own.

So it is hard for me to ever figure out how much of what we see is a credit to the pro and how much is a contribution by others.

Perhaps we always give too much credit to the pros for these performances.

by **DeadManDancing** Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:38 pm

I'll think about that. Still, in my understanding a pro must be able to come up with a concept, choreograph it, then teach it and perform it. I don't expect them to do wardrobe, make-up, or stage setting themselves though.

by **Lesallee** Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:43 pm

DeadManDancing wrote:
Glittersisgld wrote:As far as Allison is concerned, I think she is too spastic and needs to dial it down a bit. It comes across like she is trying too hard. As far as the pros being stars, that is true, but did we know that would happen when the show first began?
Of course not. It takes years of hard work to become a star. Which is exactly what's missing here. Too much one hit wonders lately.
You may say Allison is too frantic sometimes (I know what you mean), and God knows I've criticised a lot of pros (including Derek) for this, that, and the other- but at least it was their own works. The way they were presented, I thought Lindsay and Witney were the wonder twins, but no. I'm still chewing on that bite.

Don't get down on Lindsay and Witney, bro. They are talented and delightful young dancers and they are fulfilling their mandate on DWTS admirably. They take their amateur celebs in hand and coach them to entertaining and fun performances. That's all you can ask for on a show formatted as DWTS is.

Remember why Karina chose Witney for the jazz trio with Corbin? Yep, for her jazz experience and she killed it. Karina didn't have that jazz background and needed help. That doesn't diminish Karina's talent and skills in any way whatsoever.

by **Psychee22** Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:23 pm

Lesallee wrote:To my way of thinking the most important talent a pro needs to possess on DWTS is the ability to teach. DWTS is, as Cheryl B, said "a little dance show". It is strictly for entertainment not in any way a serious competition. Cutting edge or ultra innovative choreography doesn't mean much on DWTS. The pro must teach their celeb to perform a routine that is fun and entertaining enough to find favour with the fans and pull in the vote. Whether the pro does his or her own choreography, with or without assistance is irrelevant to me and, I venture to say, the majority of DWTS viewing fans.

When I watch actual dance competitions, such as SYTYCD, the choreography and the choreographer means something. But still, if an amazingly intricate and ambitious piece of choreography isn't performed with excellence it fails.

I'm with you on this. I think the biggest part of the pros' job is what they give the celebrity. Teaching would be right up there as important, but even more important, I think, is the emotional stuff. The best of them fall a little in love with their stars, bonding with them in the teaching phase and promoting them as they would their own child or their significant other or their parent in the public arena. And making the whole process fun to watch is another biggy, I think. A great teacher who is an anxious perfectionist is not fun to watch, and someone not fun to watch does not get votes, no matter how well they perform.

Among the "newer pros", Lindsey, Emma, Sasha, and Sharna are terrific at this kind of bonding. No matter who they are with, I can feel a smile. Witney less so, I think. Alfonso was perfect for her because he was older, a seasoned performer, and able to joke right through her tension.

RE: SYTYCD. The choreography in that show is not part of the competition, is it? It's a showcase for the choreographers but they aren't being voted in or out, they are just providing a service, right? [I don't watch the show as a show; I only catch up on the dances via YouTube so I don't really know how the competition actually works].

by **Lesallee** Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:53 pm

I guess you could say the choreo is part of the SYTYCD comp in that the choreographers create the dance for the competitors. Then they teach it to them and ultimately the dancer is judged on how well they execute the choreographer's concept.

SYTYCD has what they call All Star Partners, mainly former competitors such as Jenna Johnson. They frequently dance with the competitors. Last week I loved a Dmitry Chaplin choreographed Samba that Jenna did with a very young contestant. All this seasons competitors are young, it is called the Next Generation.

by **Babs2147** Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:07 am

Lesallee wrote:Just read that sweetie Hayes Grier is in hospital following a dirt bike accident. His injuries include broken ribs, a bruised lung and a concussion. He's in a lot of pain. So sorry, heal quickly Hayes.

Wishing Hayes a speedy recovery!

by **Psychee22** Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:43 pm

Lesallee wrote:I guess you could say the choreo is part of the SYTYCD comp in that the choreographers create the dance for the competitors. Then they teach it to them and ultimately the dancer is judged on how well they execute the choreographer's concept.

SYTYCD has what they call All Star Partners, mainly former competitors such as Jenna Johnson. They frequently dance with the competitors. Last week I loved a Dmitry Chaplin choreographed Samba that Jenna did with a very young contestant. All this seasons competitors are young, it is called the Next Generation.

Yes, I've been trying to keep up with the little ones' dances. They are incredibly good. Imagine what a challenge it is for the choreographer to develop a dance for a short little boy with a full grown woman. That takes creativity to do well; it could so easily be tacky. I saw another one I liked with a little boy and a grown man. It blew me away.

by **Lesallee** Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:33 am

Kind of a crossover bit between SYTYCD and DWTS: Emma and Sasha are choreographing again on SYTYCD on Monday night. Gotta watch that.

by **DeadManDancing** Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:43 pm

Lesallee wrote:

Don't get down on Lindsay and Witney, bro. They are talented and delightful young dancers and they are fulfilling their mandate on DWTS admirably. They take their amateur celebs in hand and coach them to entertaining and fun performances. That's all you can ask for on a show formatted as DWTS is.

Remember why Karina chose Witney for the jazz trio with Corbin? Yep, for her jazz experience and she killed it. Karina didn't have that jazz background and needed help. That doesn't diminish Karina's talent and skills in any way whatsoever.

Of course I remember Corbin's fabulous trio, sis- still one of my favorites, and I've used that example myself before. It was also the reason why I referred to Witney's Jazz number with Alfonso; but then Psychee told me she didn't choreograph that either. Honestly, I don't know what to think right now.
I am surprised, however, about this statement of yours:
'Whether the pro does his or her own choreography, with or without assistance is irrelevant to me and, I venture to say, the majority of DWTS viewing fans'.
How often have we discussed and ranked the performances on the show and praised our favorites, which of course included their choreographies? For me, creativity still matters and is part of what makes a seasoned professional (who will then be invited to choreograph on SYTYCD, for example). Let's see if our Utah girls will improve in that department. If they really are that ambitious, they should. Maybe it is just because they are so much younger than the others.
Anyway, I think I've said all I had to say now.

by **Glittersisgld** Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:50 pm

I think Lindsay is a wonder anyway and not just because of her dancing. If she is using choreographers, she certainly knows what to use and what looks good on the dance floor. I like her a lot better than Witney though. She just seems to have such a strength of character like Peta.

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