Re: Team VaLaur, Laurie and Val

by **kincaid53** Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:01 pm

GymGirlJane wrote:
Psychee22 wrote:I think that being out of her element, she has to pretty much depend on Val to be her sole emotional support in that training room, and she wants to please him SO much that when he does what I call his "Russian Ballet Teacher" thing (I had one, you see, and those were not fond memories) she feels demoralized. So he sees that and tells her that she just has to yell at him when he does that, and that is TRULY beyond her training. Talk back to a trainer??? C'mon!
Also totally right. You would simply not -- not ever -- talk back to your coach. You just wouldn't. And Laurie has no way to know how to relate to her dance pro other than as her coach.

What do you mean by 'talk back'..... so female gymnasts are not allowed to have a voice?......I have four Granddaughters ages 11 to 20. the youngest is a gymnast........Although her time is all consumed with gymnastics her parents make sure she has a voice and is not intimidated by anyone!! She excels and is flourishing more than anyone and her trainer says it is because of her confidence and ability to communicate what she needs to accomplish her goals. Is feeling 'demoralized' is what we want our female athletes to be dehumanized as a female to win a medal???? #Allfemaleshaveavoice!!!! Teach you daughters to be strong and they will have a full life and it not be over at 17 because they were never told they cannot have an opinion and a voice or 'talk back' to a coach!!! 'Talk back' sounds so negative like your cussing you coach out. That's not what Laurie did to Val. She did nothing more than what Marilu said to Derek Express how she felt!!!

by GymGirlJane Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:10 am

Laurie on the Ellen Show

by GymGirlJane Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:35 am

bailadora wrote: It wouldn't surprise me if Laurie was placed in jeopardy next week and if there's a surprise elimination.

That would not surprise me either. But no way is she going home. Not with every gymnast in the country voting for her. Plus I think the DWTS audience generally finds her endearing and a terrific dancer. But yeah -- I bet they put her in jeopardy.

by **Psychee22** Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:41 pm

kincaid53 wrote:(snip)
'Talk back' sounds so negative like your cussing you coach out. That's not what Laurie did to Val. She did nothing more than what Marilu said to Derek Express how she felt!!!

Just to clarify here... at issue here was NOT that Laurie was crying or expressing her feelings. At issue was that Val was telling her to upbraid him when he next got out of line like he often does when he gets anxious (yelling at her to do better instead of calmly teaching her again, as she asked). In other words, turn the tables.. she should teach HIM (how to teach). He expects her to yell at him when he acts like that. My thoughts were -- but when in her life would she have EVER learned to do such a thing? And GGJ's response to that was, basically, "never".

Now your comment seems to be aimed at the idea that kids ought to have more freedom to talk back to their coaches in gymnastics. And one of your arguments seemed to suggest that this would be good real life training.

I can't comment on the first half of that but Val seems to agree with you on the second half. After the show he told one of the interviewers that he was trying to teach her how to question authority.

Is that a good thing? Sure, when authority is perceived as being unfair, one needs to question that and try to rectify it and / or understand it and not just quietly submit, nurturing a grudge. And when Val acts like a tyrant, I hope she lets him have it with full anger guns blazing as only a frustrated hormonal 16 year old girl can. But I would not be surprised at all if she just cries, because anger is not her thing-- she's been taught to sublimate anger into performance -- and tears are one safe way for her to express herself when she's frustrated. And I also think it would be more effective as a tool to get him to change his own behavior. Guilt works well on him. It is also MUCH more effective than anger in winning votes from the audience, or at least I think so.

by **DeadManDancing** Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:14 pm

Having Mom in the training room can be very disturbing- remember Jack Osborne...
But seriously, Val's problem has always been that passion and ambition carry him away at one point, and especially the younger ones (even Rumer) had trouble swallowing it. He knows it (in one of the packages on season 20 he admitted it always happens to him that he 'takes the fun out of it'), but he can't control it apparently. As Zendaya put it, 'he even is intense when he's having breakfast'. But then again, shouldn't Laurie be used to tough teaching?

by **Psychee22** Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:39 pm

DeadManDancing wrote:[snip]

But then again, shouldn't Laurie be used to tough teaching?

I believe that Laurie has had the same female coach since she was 5 years old. I'd expect them to have a warm relationship. But more importantly, I think gymnastics is about calm unemotional (Zen-like?) discipline. So I really doubt that she has had the experience of being coached by anyone who would be as flagrantly emotional as Val.

It isn't the demands that is the problem for her... it's his apparent anger and emotionalism as he is making those demands that's making her cry.

by **kincaid53** Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:00 pm

Back to regular programming............does anyone know what latin dance they are doing? Very Happy

by **Psychee22** Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:20 pm

No social media leaks yet, and ABC won't announce that until late tomorrow, I think... but I am guessing Salsa or Samba.

The alternatives would be AT and Rumba.

She has done all the rest (Tango, Cha cha, Jive, Paso)

Yes, I know they aren't all called "Latin", but the ones that are not are often included on this night anyway)

by **Lesallee** Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:38 pm

Pure figures she will get the easier Salsa because they will be aiming to have her back on top. Of course we well know how Pure feels about Val (and Maks). They may be right though.

by **Psychee22** Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:51 pm

I don't buy into their logic, though. If the producers really wanted to manipulate, they would do so for drama, and it would be more dramatic to keep Laurie down a peg or two, assuming that she is raking in the votes. Wouldn't it?

The only reason that I can see that they would want to manipulate things so that Laurie got to the top of the leader board again would be to make sure she made it to the finals. But if she is raking in the votes, why would they need to do that?

by **Lesallee** Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:07 pm

Team dances are coming up and there is always manipulation surrounding that. Producers know who they want as Team Captains and are prepared to push, pull and prod to get who they want.

by **Lesallee** Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:37 pm

Yep, Laurie got salsa. Pure will be saying we told you so.

by **Psychee22** Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:06 pm

Lesallee wrote:Team dances are coming up and there is always manipulation surrounding that. Producers know who they want as Team Captains and are prepared to push, pull and prod to get who they want.

I figured it was already decided... Val on one side and Sharna on the other. Val will go for his brother first, and Sharna will grab Derek. Val will then go for Artem, if he's still around...

by **Psychee22** Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:09 pm

Lesallee wrote:Yep, Laurie got salsa. Pure will be saying we told you so.

Doesn't mean their rationale was right.

by GymGirlJane Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:39 pm

Psychee22 wrote:

I believe that Laurie has had the same female coach since she was 5 years old. I'd expect them to have a warm relationship. But more importantly, I think gymnastics is about calm unemotional (Zen-like?) discipline. So I really doubt that she has had the experience of being coached by anyone who would be as flagrantly emotional as Val.

It isn't the demands that is the problem for her... it's his apparent anger and emotionalism as he is making those demands that's making her cry.

Laurie has been with her coach all her gymnastics career (as you said since age 5). Maggie Haney's gym is a homeschool gym, so Laurie has also gone to school there. They are supposed to be very very very close. (Laurie was Maggie's first elite gymnast and they sort of came up in the ranks together. Now she also has Jazzy Foberg.)

Coaches do get angry. But its not an emotional kind of anger, if you know what I mean. I don't know if I would use the term "zen like" but there really is just no room for an artistic temperment. Its highly highly disciplined.

by bailadora Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:48 am

It is ridiculous to say that salsa is an easy dance: it is very fast, the beat is not simple, and you need to have good hip action. Over the years many pros have tried to hide the deficiencies of their celebs in salsa by making their routines all about lifts---this will probably be Cheryl's strategy with Ryan who has looked very stiff.I expect Val to continue showing that Laurie can actually dance and not only do acrobatic tricks. And after 3 weeks of "Laurie Fierce" we should go back to joyful Laurie. I only wish that she had been assigned a real salsa song, but inappropriate songs are mainstays of this show.

Manipulation of the narrative is another hallmark: the favorites have their scores lowered mid-season and are also placed in jeopardy. This already happened to James and I expect to happen to Laurie next week. This not only creates drama but prompts people that thought the favorites were safe to start voting for them. I really don't care about all this manipulation, I just want to see good performances.

by GymGirlJane Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:17 am

Psychee22 wrote:

The only reason that I can see that they would want to manipulate things so that Laurie got to the top of the leader board again would be to make sure she made it to the finals. But if she is raking in the votes, why would they need to do that?

They wouldn't. I am endlessly amused by the need people who post about DWTS have to see "producer manipulation" in the outcome. As if the producers have their "favorites" and all they care about is their favorite winning the trophy.

Producers care about one thing and one thing only and thats ratings. So they are vested in wanting the viewers' favorite to win.

To the extent there is "manipulation" it is not in the outcome or the voting. It lies in the artificial creation of suspense and drama so that viewers will not get bored and stop watching mid-season. Hence, judges low-scoring an obvious leader like Laurie and putting her in jeopardy (even tho she is not in the bottom 2 or 3).

by **Psychee22** Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:21 am

bailadora wrote:It is ridiculous to say that salsa is an easy dance: it is very fast, the beat is not simple, and you need to have good hip action. [snip]

I think the Salsa is scored much easier than the Samba on the show, though, given that the Samba has clear elements that Len always looks for and there is a right way and wrong way of doing them. The Salsa, in contrast, is regarded as free of such restrictions and rules, which is why folks regard it as "easier" on this show. Still, though, the judges will mark it down if it isn't "ground in" "down and dirty" enough for their taste, as they did with Bindi.

by **DeadManDancing** Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:58 pm

GymGirlJane wrote:
...
To the extent there is "manipulation" it is not in the outcome or the voting. It lies in the artificial creation of suspense and drama so that viewers will not get bored and stop watching mid-season. Hence, judges low-scoring an obvious leader like Laurie and putting her in jeopardy (even tho she is not in the bottom 2 or 3).

Wouldn't that still imply the judges are following a script? Not that I believe they do. Some of them rather seem to play their own game sometimes, thus trying to avoid the impression they already picked their favorites. (Waiting for Psychee to hop on that.) Whatever is behind it, the effect, however, is the same. As Bailadora described it: frontrunners usually take a dip around mid season.
Now as for Laurie this week, 25- two eights and a nine- is still a pretty good score in itself. The only trouble is no one scored less than 24 and naturally the only way from a perfect 30 is down. 'Obvious leader' is what she might have considered herself so far; so it's probably hard to take for the young girl she is.

by **Psychee22** Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:23 pm

DeadManDancing wrote:
GymGirlJane wrote:
...
To the extent there is "manipulation" it is not in the outcome or the voting. It lies in the artificial creation of suspense and drama so that viewers will not get bored and stop watching mid-season. Hence, judges low-scoring an obvious leader like Laurie and putting her in jeopardy (even tho she is not in the bottom 2 or 3).
Wouldn't that still imply the judges are following a script? Not that I believe they do. Some of them rather seem to play their own game sometimes, thus trying to avoid the impression they already picked their favorites. (Waiting for Psychee to hop on that.) Whatever is behind it, the effect, however, is the same. As Bailadora described it: frontrunners usually take a dip around mid season.
(snip)

Hop on that? As in "disagree? I don't believe that I DO disagree with you on this, Deadie. Didn't I predict that the judges would start to score Laurie harder for a few weeks? They have to keep the show from looking like a boring slam dunk in which they are then accused of playing favorites.

But it fits with their artistic idea of scoring anyway. They score "wow" moments highest, and a "wow" moment for one person is not the same as a "wow" moment for another person. Once a person gets a few great scores, it takes more and more to "wow" the judges and they start to look carefully to find things that are "off" that prevented them from being "wowed". That results in tougher scoring. Or so it seems from my perspective....

No, what I have a problem with is the idea that management decides in advance who they want the MBT to go to and then they manipulate things to make that happen.

by **Glittersisgld** Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:36 pm

Yes, I agree I don't believe it is planned who will win.

by GymGirlJane Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:38 pm

Psychee22 wrote:
DeadManDancing wrote:
GymGirlJane wrote:
...
To the extent there is "manipulation" it is not in the outcome or the voting. It lies in the artificial creation of suspense and drama so that viewers will not get bored and stop watching mid-season. Hence, judges low-scoring an obvious leader like Laurie and putting her in jeopardy (even tho she is not in the bottom 2 or 3).
Wouldn't that still imply the judges are following a script? Not that I believe they do. Some of them rather seem to play their own game sometimes, thus trying to avoid the impression they already picked their favorites. (Waiting for Psychee to hop on that.) Whatever is behind it, the effect, however, is the same. As Bailadora described it: frontrunners usually take a dip around mid season.
(snip)

Hop on that? As in "disagree? I don't believe that I DO disagree with you on this, Deadie. Didn't I predict that the judges would start to score Laurie harder for a few weeks? They have to keep the show from looking like a boring slam dunk in which they are then accused of playing favorites.

But it fits with their artistic idea of scoring anyway. They score "wow" moments highest, and a "wow" moment for one person is not the same as a "wow" moment for another person. Once a person gets a few great scores, it takes more and more to "wow" the judges and they start to look carefully to find things that are "off" that prevented them from being "wowed". That results in tougher scoring. Or so it seems from my perspective....

No, what I have a problem with is the idea that management decides in advance who they want the MBT to go to and then they manipulate things to make that happen.

Exactly right Psyche. DM -- I never said the judges do not follow a script to some extent at some times. of course they do. But they for sure do not have some scheme to promote some predetermined winner (who is for some unknown reason a favorite of what folks call TPTB) and there is no grand manipulation of votes going on. Thats all.

by **DeadManDancing** Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:34 am

Moved my reply to the General Chit Chat.

by GymGirlJane Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:44 pm

Bumping Laurie back up on top where she belongs!!!!

by **Psychee22** Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:13 pm

I think tonight might be Laurie's chance to break out the gymnastics in the group dance. And I expect that both Sasha and Derek will join her. My reasoning is that the dance is supposed to start out in lock step and then everybody breaks out in freedom -- and what better way to illustrate "free" than a bunch of flips?

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