Between Seasons Conversations

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by Lesallee on Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:50 am

Don't know where the Handsome Men of DWTS went so I will put this here. 


Happy Birthday Tony.


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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by Psychee22 on Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:50 pm

Glittersisgld wrote:I agree the show doesn't need Emmys, but maybe the pros shouldn't get nominated if they are using ghost choreographers or the ghosts should be nominated along with the pros.  Perfect world. 

Hi, Glitter!   Your options are logical, but there are complications.  DWTS knows that the pros turn to ghosts for help, but since those ghosts don't work for the show, the producers don't acknowledge the ghosts. I guess they are viewed as off-site teachers that the pros go to to improve their craft.  Their input is to the pro only, off site.  The show has no legal involvement with them.  Ghosts, by definition, are supposed to be and remain invisible.  That's different from, say, the outsiders who are occasionally brought into the show to help on camera.  Those people have contracts with the show. 

So if the show puts together a package of dances for a pro, if a ghost is involved, the show does not want to know about it.  AND, the Emmy people will not list a collaborator if that collaborator does not work for the show.  So, the only thing left would be for the pro to refuse permission to have their (ghost-assisted) dances submitted to the Emmys.  And this isn't particularly fair, either, because the pros are the ultimate directors of their dances and ultimately tweak the choreography given to them by ghosts to better fit with their stars.  Their contribution is not negligible, and in Hollywood, it is customary for the guy in charge to take the credit for work that many people helped tweak.

The issue only came up with Witney.  I don't think any other nomination involved ghosts.  Lindsey regularly thanks her ghost on his Twitter feed whenever she uses him, as does Mark.

Addendum:  it is my understanding that Allison also does all of her own choreography.  I didn't mention her above.

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by Babs2147 on Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:02 pm

Happy Birthday and Cheers to Tony! Cheers!

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by bluechipdude on Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:39 pm

Babies, babies everywhere. Look at who else is getting a baby? Hint: " I can't get no satisfaction." Yes no other than Mick Jagger who is 72 and already has seven children.The lucky bearer is a ballerina who is 29 and I can't remember her name. So Mick keep living in the moment and WTG.

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by Lesallee on Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:51 pm

That Mick just keeps on keeping on! What on earth does a 29 year old girl see in wrinkly old Mick? $$$$, I guess.

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by kincaid53 on Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:47 pm

Babs2147 wrote:Happy Birthday and Cheers to Tony! Cheers!
   I may be a day late, but still wanted to join everyone in wishing Tony a Happy Birthday!!  Make mine a double Wine

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by kincaid53 on Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:53 pm

Lesallee wrote:That Mick just keeps on keeping on! What on earth does a 29 year old girl see in wrinkly old Mick? $$$$, I guess.

    You're probably right sis, she may not have the ring, but these days the baby is what can set them up for a nice life.   But, hey it's Mick Jagger!!  I agree with you both.....wtg and Applause for 'keeping it up' at 72!!  

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by Lesallee on Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:10 pm


Hayes Grier, a special favourite of mine has landed a new show, Top Grier. Billed as a comedy docuseries about renovating the family farm in Mooresville, NC it will feature Hayes' family and friends and even the family pooch. 


I hope I will be able to access this show, I so enjoyed Hayes' and Emma's partnership on DWTS.

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by Babs2147 on Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:05 pm

Good for Hayes!  Such a handsome sweetie!!

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by Lesallee on Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:06 pm

New dance competition show called World of Dance on the horizon at NBC. Jennifer Lopez is exec. producer. Sounds as though it will feature professional dancers of various genre specialties not amateurs. Sounds intriguing. Cheryl fled to NBC a while ago, I wonder if she will appear.


Also Channing Tatum has a dance show in development also with NBC (I believe). 

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by DeadManDancing on Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:55 pm

Psychee22 wrote:
DeadManDancing wrote:
... In the end, doesn't it always come down to the same old conflict- tradition vs. innovation, Len vs. Bruno, Derek vs. Val? Is it maybe even necessary to keep the show going? Yes and no. It has been; for quitee a few seasons. But I believe the next generation of pros will resolve the conflict and give us the best of both worlds. That is why my eyes are on Lindsay.

I'm not sure I understand your comment, Deadie.  To me, both the traditional plus the innovative together equals variety, and it is the variety that keeps the audience engaged.  The push and pull between the two should just translate to a more interesting viewer experience.  The show would be boring without it, I think.  Len's carmudgeoness is all part of the fun as is Derek's rule breaking.  It's only a problem when die hard fans fail to see the bigger (ka-ching) perspective and start getting nasty and personal about it. 

...
Maybe I shouldn't have called it conflict; in the end we are more or less on the same page. A little controversy never hurt the ratings, and a variety of styles keeps the show alive. No one would watch if it still looked like season 2...
Btw: that was a lot of insider information- did you take over from DWTS-fan 5001? Laughing Some of it was actually hard to swallow, to be honest. I knew the Witney-case; I just wouldn't have imagined it was the rule rather than the exception. I was surprised when Peta openly called for help with her freestyle, but looking back at it, I think you're right and she handled it well. Sharna got help from her (ex-) bf in one or two cases which were mentioned. Anyway, there are countless examples of the pros helping each other; so using ghosts should also be ok, I guess- the problem starts when abc ignores or denies them. A bit hypocritical to me. Even Karina needed help (with the HipHop for Apolo) and didn't hide it. Didn't Maks have external assistance with the first ever Contemporary back in season ten already? I'd just like to be sure that what I see is what I get without false labelling.  

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by DeadManDancing on Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:57 pm

Lesallee wrote:That Mick just keeps on keeping on! What on earth does a 29 year old girl see in wrinkly old Mick?
Not too much when the lights go down. Thank God.

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by kincaid53 on Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:39 am

DeadManDancing wrote:
Lesallee wrote:That Mick just keeps on keeping on! What on earth does a 29 year old girl see in wrinkly old Mick?
Not too much when the lights go down. Thank God.

                       Funny post

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by Psychee22 on Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:36 pm

DeadManDancing wrote:
Psychee22 wrote:
DeadManDancing wrote:
... In the end, doesn't it always come down to the same old conflict- tradition vs. innovation, Len vs. Bruno, Derek vs. Val? Is it maybe even necessary to keep the show going? Yes and no. It has been; for quitee a few seasons. But I believe the next generation of pros will resolve the conflict and give us the best of both worlds. That is why my eyes are on Lindsay.

I'm not sure I understand your comment, Deadie.  To me, both the traditional plus the innovative together equals variety, and it is the variety that keeps the audience engaged.  The push and pull between the two should just translate to a more interesting viewer experience.  The show would be boring without it, I think.  Len's carmudgeoness is all part of the fun as is Derek's rule breaking.  It's only a problem when die hard fans fail to see the bigger (ka-ching) perspective and start getting nasty and personal about it. 

...
Maybe I shouldn't have called it conflict; in the end we are more or less on the same page. A little controversy never hurt the ratings, and a variety of styles keeps the show alive. No one would watch if it still looked like season 2...
Btw: that was a lot of insider information- did you take over from DWTS-fan 5001? Laughing Some of it was actually hard to swallow, to be honest. I knew the Witney-case; I just wouldn't have imagined it was the rule rather than the exception. I was surprised when Peta openly called for help with her freestyle, but looking back at it, I think you're right and she handled it well. Sharna got help from her (ex-) bf in one or two cases which were mentioned. Anyway, there are countless examples of the pros helping each other; so using ghosts should also be ok, I guess- the problem starts when abc ignores or denies them. A bit hypocritical to me. Even Karina needed help (with the HipHop for Apolo) and didn't hide it. Didn't Maks have external assistance with the first ever Contemporary back in season ten already? I'd just like to be sure that what I see is what I get without false labelling.  

I miss DWTS-fan5001.  She had terrific insider information plus she was exceptionally diligent about documenting facts. 

My own "facts" came from various published interviews.  Sorry f I sounded like an encyclopedia.  I first became aware of the issue through one of the "After Buzz Aftershow" episodes.  I don't remember the date, but it was just after the Witney Carson Emmy storm.  They have had a number of pros on the show since then discussing the issue.  Louis von Amstel, though, was the pro who insisted that having a ghost to choreograph was more the rule now than the exception, and the only exceptions he specifically mentioned to that were Derek, Mark, and Sharna.  I probably should add that the tone of his remark, if I recall correctly, was something snarky like "pros aren't as diligent today as they were in my day", though he didn't say that.  I'm fairly sure that he has always done his own choreography himself, but he was talking at a time when he wasn't on the show (and neither was Allison).  I also got info from Alan Salazar's Youtube "Choreography Reel" (it showed dances that he had choreographed before Feb 2015 for DWTS and other shows), and more recent information by reading his Twitter feed (all the thank yous from Lindsey and Mark for his help).  Lindsey did an interview about her process of working with Alan that you can find on the PureDWTS site.  It's just an audio, not a video, or I would put the link here.

I think (and this is just a guess) the show doesn't acknowledge the ghosts because of legal issues.  It may just be an issue of who is liable for damages if something goes wrong.  For example, if the ghost injures himself and can never dance again while working on a dance for one of the pros, wouldn't someone try to sue the show if the show made some acknowledgement of that person's contribution to the dance, even if the show had no contract with him? "Hey, you acknowledged that he participated, you gave him credit, so you need to step up and finance his rehab"?  Seems they minimize risk by pretending not to know anything about it. 

The alternative would be to actually hire extra choreographers for the show, but how many of them would sign up if they were then restricted from working on competing shows? 

Switching gears, look at what Emma & Sasha choreographed for two kids on this season's SYTYCD:




Aren't they great?

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by DeadManDancing on Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:06 pm

To start with the video: that's a killer. I bet Emma and Sasha wish their grown celebs on the other show could move like that... It is also a nice example for what dancing can do beyond entertainment. Well known people from this business opening doors for the next generation. Also nice to see how the judges take them serious.
As for DWTS-fan: I miss her too sometimes, or why would I mention her?
Louis may sound a bit arrogant in his comment, but I understand him. This whole ghost issue could become a problem for the reputation of the show in general at some point. If the ghosts aren't acknowledged and named for whatever reason (you mentioned the legal aspect), how will John Doe ever know whose work he is watching on TV? Ok, it should be all about the celebs anyhow, but I think we all know better.
This needs to be fixed in the contracts and the rule book to level the playing field again. Fan would probably know how.

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by Psychee22 on Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:52 pm

DeadManDancing wrote:...
Louis may sound a bit arrogant in his comment, but I understand him. This whole ghost issue could become a problem for the reputation of the show in general at some point. If the ghosts aren't acknowledged and named for whatever reason (you mentioned the legal aspect), how will John Doe ever know whose work he is watching on TV? Ok, it should be all about the celebs anyhow, but I think we all know better.
This needs to be fixed in the contracts and the rule book to level the playing field again. Fan would probably know how.
If it hasn't been a problem for the show for 11 years, why would it be a problem now, do you think? 


I really don't think that Sharna, Mark, or Derek would feel like the playing field isn't level when others get outside help.  Some people don't have the skills to choreograph as easily as they do.  It isn't like those other pros don't have to work hard, though;  they still have to teach their partner and adapt the choreography to fit the partner when the partner can't handle what they are trying to teach.  They still have to work out the staging and the costumes and probably the overall theme.  And then there is all that last minute changing that happens when at the eleventh hour, the music is different from what they practiced to.   There might even be a downside to getting outside help.

In some ways, getting outside help levels the playing field between those who were cross trained with lots of different kinds of dances and those who were more limited to ballroom, doesn't it? 


The only unfairness involved, I think, is that the newest pros probably don't have the extra cash to pay for the ghost help.  And they may not know how to get the help if they need it.  That thought has me wondering about Keo...


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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by DeadManDancing on Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:38 pm

Keo was exactly the guy I was thinking of in this context! His frustration was obvious; especially during switch up. For the Contemporary- the recreation of Pink's Try video- he hired the original choreographers (openly), and look at the difference. If that's how it works today, we'll have to accept it, I guess. But in this case, as well as with Peta's freestyle, at least we knew what was going on. 
"
If it hasn't been a problem for the show for 11 years, why would it be a problem now, do you think?"
Because before the Witney case most people including me were simply not aware of it, and if we can trust Louis, it used to be the exception in the old days.

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by Psychee22 on Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:04 pm

I think it might have been easier to choreograph for the show when all they showed were steps from the bronze, silver, and gold syllabi. But when Julianne, Mark, and Derek were added to the show, they started to introduce and incorporate stuff from other dance disciplines into their routines.   When the viewers loved that, the show then went further and added new dance styles.  I am guessing that it was then that outside choreographers were being hired by the other pros to keep them competitive.  Then the show started to allow extras and sophisticated staging, and those folks who had only danced in ballroom venues needed even more help.  The expectations on the pros today seem to be completely different than in the first few seasons.


But I kind of like the idea that the pros are given the challenge to learn something new, especially when they are given a celebrity who comes in dancing well. 

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by DeadManDancing on Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:05 pm

No need to argue the show is more entertaining now than it used to be. I think it was Tony who once said in an interview the moment Derek, Jules, and Mark joined the show, the others became aware they had to step it up. But in a way, and I've said that before, they also opened Pandora's box. People expect every season to be bigger, better, more spectacular than the one before. Even Julianne (as a judge) admitted she was glad not to be pro nowadays... The pressure on the pros must be enormous- especially on those who are not "given a celebrity who comes in dancing well".  But if the celebrity can handle it, I still prefer a lot of recognizable content with show elements as the icing on the cake. Add true chemistry, and all three judges will be satisfied. Anyway, if "the pros are given the challenge to learn something new", hiring ghosts is probably not the best way to take the challenge. At least, not in the long run. 

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by Psychee22 on Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:36 pm

DeadManDancing wrote: Anyway, if "the pros are given the challenge to learn something new", hiring ghosts is probably not the best way to take the challenge. At least, not in the long run. 

Why not?  The pros learn new things from the ghosts, and have to learn them well enough to teach it to their celebs.  At the end of the week, that pro has permanently added new skills and tricks to his or her repertoire.  No?

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by DeadManDancing on Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:00 pm

Now we're cooking. Do they really learn sth from having someone else choreograph the dance (and will they try it on their own next time), or will they keep on taking the easy road, because learning a different style normally takes years of practice? That may have to be answered individually for each pro; so we'll have to watch how they handle it. Adding new tricks to their repertoire is not what I would call learning a new style. That would be my biggest criticism: effect over substance.

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by Glittersisgld on Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:58 pm

I don't know what sth is.  Choreographers can always learn new things.  There isn't anything wrong with that.  They are professional dancers.  They should be able to pick these things up quickly.  What style takes years to learn?  I'm sure most of these dancers can do ballet, ballroom, jazz, etc.  Right? 

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by Psychee22 on Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:48 pm

(To both of you)


Glitter, "sth" is an abbreviation of "something".


Deadie, we do have the experience of Witney as evidence.  She got help for her whole season with Alfonso but since then she has been re-using the elements of that choreography in her own creations.  She doesn't pull things together as tightly as her ghost, and there have been criticisms, but the re-use is definitely there.


I think the pros have been mostly looking for assistance with contemporary and "lyrical hip-hop", which is a kind of hip-hop developed by the couple known as "NappyTabs" of SYTYCD fame.



Glitter, I don't know how difficult it is to learn a new style, but I do think it involves a great deal of practice to get one's body to get comfortable enough with the style that it doesn't fall back to what it is better used to.  I recall Derek trying to learn the Bhangra with Shawn saying how unnatural the movements were for him and how he was unable to finalize his choreography for that dance until a few hours before they had to perform it.  And I can't imagine how long it would take for anyone with ballet training to get comfortable with not pointing her toes in a Contemporary.  But I would agree with you that it isn't like a pro has to start completely from scratch to learn a new dance... they at least have the raw material (like core strength) to work with.  Remembering the choreography to a new type of dance after 25 years of just doing the same elements, though, must be a challenge.

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by piratealikat on Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:29 pm

Soooo...has anyone heard any whispering about our fall contestants?  I'm thinking we should know for sure by the middle of August, shouldn't we??

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Re: Between Seasons Conversations

Post by Lesallee on Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:36 pm

piratealikat wrote:Soooo...has anyone heard any whispering about our fall contestants?  I'm thinking we should know for sure by the middle of August, shouldn't we??
Haven't heard a thing. No speculation, nothing. Guess ABC is still frying up their B'ette show and then their BIP nonsense to stir things for DWTS. You are probably right, the second week in August should see some rumours begin floating.

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